tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9230592.post7682326215114683428..comments2023-06-14T09:10:27.097-04:00Comments on Gray Falcon: More Myths from the NY TimesCubuCokohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14128683147101484237noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9230592.post-17074810705318529342008-08-08T00:16:00.000-04:002008-08-08T00:16:00.000-04:00"Zvornik Massacre" - an observation that the massa..."Zvornik Massacre" - an observation that the massacre they describe did not take place in or really near Srebrenica at all - but near Zvornik. Now, what constitutes a massacre and who is responsible, that is something people can discuss...<BR/><BR/>It's the 10th Sabotage Detachment or 10th Demolition Division (I have seen I think both descriptions) or perhaps 10th Demolition Detachment...<BR/><BR/>Yes, they ran one of the shooting sites described and there were very few guards at all involved in that... and that site was near Zvornik as were the others... all but the grenade warehouse, the place where they say people were herded and then they shot it up and fired grenades into it...<BR/><BR/>With a shortage of manpower(had the VJ been allowed to participate this problem could have been solved) the VRS did end up integrating volunteers with who knows what motives... from what I know there were mercenaries too who ended up going to Zaire and who knows where else in Africa...<BR/><BR/>There were such people who were to be tried in Serbia for involvement in Srebrenica-related shootings but when Djindjic took over they were sprung from prison. Perhaps their possible involvement with the Western intelligence agencies that helped put Djindjic into power helped get them the out-of-gaol free card; this also served the effort of snuffing out any attempt at establishing an alternative telling of the Srebrenica events.Mr. Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02030162032320092724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9230592.post-65546518934510823982008-08-07T11:38:00.000-04:002008-08-07T11:38:00.000-04:00Zvornik Massacre is also quite excessive. We shoul...Zvornik Massacre is also quite excessive. <BR/><BR/>We should never forget that, for an example, an enitre division of those "freelancers" (who were in reality mercenaries born in the West fighting on the Muslim side, or in other cases on the Croats' side) was infiltrated within the VRS (I think it was called the 10th Brigade or 10th Division!) by Western secret services.<BR/><BR/>And most crimes blamed on the Serbs in BiH were actually committed by mercenaries who were part of this bunch.<BR/><BR/>I believe that all crimes blamed on the Serbs were committed by that bunch.<BR/><BR/>For example Drazen Erdemovic, who boasted to ABC in a 1996 interview of the fact that he had killed on his own 1200 Muslims in BiH was part of that group of mercenaries.<BR/><BR/>I hope Gray Falcon can correct my claims if I'm wrong but I think I'm recalling the facts precisely.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10964425437506372352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9230592.post-21379146855057348682008-08-06T23:34:00.000-04:002008-08-06T23:34:00.000-04:00I tried to figure out the whole Srebrenica busines...I tried to figure out the whole Srebrenica business myself - I checked what they said at the Krstic process. Some details not widely reported came out of that. One, is that as the 28th Infantry Division and those who traveled with it passed through the RS lines towards Tuzla, Mladic insisted that the main force of the VRS's Drina Corps go for Zepa to the south... leaving a small force to deal with the Srebrenica column headed north...<BR/><BR/>Also, prisoners were held with very few guards. So you had many prisoners, few guards, and at least one site where there was a prisoner uprising. There was also an attack by the Muslim army from Tuzla to help the column. They played VRS intercepts where they openly expressed worry that Zvornik was being threatened by the fighting. The executions of the PoWs took place almost all in the Zvornik area at around the time of the greatest pressure by the Muslims in the Zvornik area.<BR/><BR/>Also, there were offers to exchange the prisoners while they were alive. Alija Izetbegovic refused.<BR/><BR/>Now I must say that it was a while since I looked into this so there may be inaccuracies. I think nevertheless that "Zvornik Massacre" would be more accurate than "Srebrenica Massacre".Mr. Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02030162032320092724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9230592.post-67243622040529153062008-08-06T16:18:00.000-04:002008-08-06T16:18:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.CAPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09861096695503969576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9230592.post-61160018938882067282008-08-06T10:20:00.000-04:002008-08-06T10:20:00.000-04:00Your info jives with mine. As far as I know from ...Your info jives with mine. As far as I know from classified sources many of the Muslims in Srebrenica were actually relocated into a refugee camp under UN control and later moved to Muslim controlled cities. I also know for a fact that the Dutch battalion was set up to take the fall for the operation: the truth is that the Dutch DID call in NATO airpower for help and that Akashi DID relay this request to NATO who REFUSED to act.<BR/><BR/>I was aware of the massacres of Serbs living around Srebrenica which the Muslims committed earlier in the war and I do remember hearing at least one Serbian officer saying that when he would enter Srebrenica he would make the Muslims pay for that. Still, I have absolutely no reason to believe the theory that Mladic or, even less so, Karadzic shared this guy's desire for revenge as they were far more interested in good PR for them then killing a few Muslims.<BR/><BR/>As for the famous video of tehe Skorpioni shooting Muslims prisoners, I have never found any source which would convincingly place this at the moment and location of the fall of Srebrenica.<BR/><BR/>I know that some Serbian units did commit horrendous atrocities (I think that one of them was called the "White Swans" or something similar), but these were not subordinated to the authorities of the Republika Srpska and were freelancers.<BR/><BR/>All this is to say that when you write "<I>Killing POWs is wrong, any which way you slice it. But genocide it ain't</I> I completely agree with you.<BR/><BR/>During the war in Bosnia I was getting daily classified UNPROFOR briefings and I have NEVER heard ANYONE at UNPROFOR making the claim that a genocide was taking place. Not in Srebrenica, not in Omarska, not in Gorazde and not in Sarajevo. There were plenty of such claims form NATO HQ, but not a SINGLE ONE for the UN forces on the ground.<BR/><BR/>Still, I very much deplore that the authorities in Belgrade and/or the Serbian press corps never managed to produce an comprehensive report about Srebrenica or the rest of the propaganda operations of Muslims (Makrale and Racak come to mind). My best guess is that the authorities and elites in Serbia are all very much aware of all this and have a vested interest to remain silent.<BR/><BR/>Could have have anything to do with $$$ and support coming from their bosses in Washington?VINEYARDSAKER:https://www.blogger.com/profile/12570841380033481032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9230592.post-32184178294331209432008-08-05T21:59:00.000-04:002008-08-05T21:59:00.000-04:00There isn't one yet that I've come across. The ver...There isn't one yet that I've come across. The version most media peddle is nonsense; from just reading the "drive-by" explanation in stories about Bosnia, you'd imagine tens of thousands of Serb troops entering the town, and massacring the unarmed, defenseless menfolk as their women and the UN troops watched. That did not happen. <BR/><BR/>Apparently, Srebrenica was taken by only about 200 Serb troops and a tank or two, after the Muslim troops made a run for it, leaving their women and children behind at the UN base. Serbs claim several hundred men (including teenage boys) were seized in the UN base, and later exchanged, unharmed. Muslims claim they were all killed. Surely there is a record somewhere that can shed light on this.<BR/><BR/>It also appears that, as they pursued the fleeing Muslim troops, Serb troops did not take prisoners - and those they did, they executed. The Serb troops were local, and many have lost families to Muslim raids over the past several years; Oric's men had taken no prisoners, either. While that may be an explanation, it's not - and cannot - be an excuse. Killing POWs is wrong, any which way you slice it. But genocide it ain't.CubuCokohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14128683147101484237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9230592.post-26793175341057524982008-08-05T20:17:00.000-04:002008-08-05T20:17:00.000-04:00Grey Falcon,What is, to your knowledge, the most d...Grey Falcon,<BR/><BR/>What is, to your knowledge, the most detailed and accurate description of what actually happened in Srebrenica?<BR/><BR/>Thanks,<BR/><BR/>The SakerVINEYARDSAKER:https://www.blogger.com/profile/12570841380033481032noreply@blogger.com