Friday, September 28, 2012

The Enduring Schism

One reader asked for my comment on Ralph Raico's essay on the Great War, recently posted on the Mises Institute site, and featured on It is the same essay that Justin Raimondo mentioned in late June, which I addressed in my column three days later.

Though I have written about the Great War before - here, for example, also here and here - I've decided to do it again, because I've just noticed something that's been there all along. Namely, for all their mutual enmities, the Western Europeans - Catholics, Protestants or secularized descendants of both - always seem to have a common attitude towards the Orthodox Europeans (Serbs, Russians, Romanians, Greeks, and even Bulgarians). Even while fighting the Muslims - from the Seljuks and Arabs of the Crusades to the Ottomans and Mamelukes later - the West continued trying to crush the Orthodox, sometimes even prioritizing it (e.g. 1204).

"Serbia must die" - Austrian cartoon from 1914
I've written a lengthy essay about this for, which should be posting today. It goes over the Balkans Wars, the history of Catholic persecution of the Orthodox before, during and after the Ottoman conquest, and ends with the Great War. It's an issue that needs to be clarified, because what we're seeing today is the same sort of pattern coming from the West: Russia is the enemy, the Other - and the Serbs are Russians Lite, who need to be crushed because their stubborn resistance might give others ideas.

I don't know whether Raico's tendency to blame Russia and Serbia for daring to resist Teutonic aggression is a function of this othering of the Orthodox, or the inexplicable sympathy for Austria-Hungary that many libertarians have, probably originating with Ludwig von Mises.  In any case, both Raico's arguments and the language he uses (not qualifying "Greater Serbia" as a canard, for example) suggest that he swallowed the Austro-Hungarian narrative hook, line and sinker.

And we're still dealing with the legacy of Austro-Hungarian identity politics. Croatian identity, for example, was set up under Habsburg aegis as Catholic and militantly Serbophobic. This eventually led to the genocide perpetrated by the Croatian state between 1941-45, with the blessing and participation of Catholic clergy.

Serb leaders involved in the creation of Yugoslavia in 1918 did not understand that those who identified as Croats and Muslims did not consider the Serbs their kin, but rather their inferiors. Becoming Catholic (in Austrian-held lands) or Muslim (in Turkish-held lands) meant escaping the life of oppression and contempt in which the Orthodox Serbs were held by both empires.

Whether it was called "one people, three faiths" (under the Kingdom) or "brotherhood and unity of nations and nationalities" (under Tito), it was a lie. Close to a million Serbs paid with their lives for believing that lie in 1941-45, while another million was displaced and tens of thousands died in the 1990s. Yet all too many believe it even now, just as they continue to fawn at the West that rejects them as the Other. Such people are beyond help.

The rest? The choice they have is the same today as it ever was: renounce their identity and embrace another (Croat, Bosniak, Montenegrin, "Kosovarian", "Vojvodinian", etc.) to be accepted by the current imperial powers, or stay true to their roots and be oppressed. But oppressors come and go, and those who give up their identity never seem to gain happiness that way. Only hatred.


Zman said...

IS the "Vojvodinian" propaganda heating up?? wasn't one of the separatists just kicked out of office for beating up someone? Do you have anything, you seem to have better sources. I can't find anything besides B-92 and blic propaganda.

jack said...

Off topic but with the Arafat allegation that he was killed with Polonium 210 and the Litvenenko affair has no one considered that Milosevic might have been killed the same way?

Not basing it on anything but it is a plausible method of how he might have been killed.

Meezer said...

The EU & the US Empire will collapse. It's just a matter of time. Those Serbs that fawn over them are idiots. They want to get seats on the Titanic just after it hit the iceberg.

All the Serbs have to do is keep close ties with Russia.

The Hero of Crappy Town said...

"I don't know whether Raico's tendency to blame Russia and Serbia for daring to resist Teutonic aggression is a function of this othering of the Orthodox, or the inexplicable sympathy for Austria-Hungary that many libertarians have, probably originating with Ludwig von Mises."

Another factor is the tendency of the persistent revisionists to perceive the American government the most wicked of them all regardless of the time period. So Serbia is to some extent collateral damage to this perception owing to the fact United States allied with her. So in their narrative not only did Wilson needlessly enter a war of choice, but he did it on the side that was the more guilty and wicked — surely that's a stronger argument against US gov than if the latter part is left out.

panix Panixgr said...

I guess the big plan it to destroy the slavs. If you notice, the pattern is to always attack the strongest of the slavs. Not Croat/Muslim Bosniak/Bulgarian nose even bled right?
Bulgarians was the nation with the fewest casualties during WWII.
At the same time Russians/Ukranians lost 25M in total in WWII, and Serbs alone 1M as Nebojsa states. Their plan is to kill the free Slavic spirit. As long as the weakest slavs submit to ephemeral promises the danger will always be there. Only an enormous slavic victory will make the weak ones go back to their pack. Until then, they will be licking western boots.

Gray Falcon said...

Late response because I'm traveling: Vojvodina separatists have been howling for months, but they aren't getting very far just yet.
Milosevic's death certainly remains a mystery, and I'm for checking out all theories, for sure.
Good points, Meezer and Hero; the whole "Americans bad so hurr" thing had not occurred to me, but it tracks.
Panix is on to something too; "they'll like s when we win" I believe the sentiment is called. We shall see.

Senad Alihromic said...

Why would Vojvodina want to secede from Serbia?
At this rate pretty soon every single household in Serbia is going to be its own country.
I've always wondered though what would happen if Belgrade seceded from Serbia and became its own city-state.

I also don't get the whole stick with Russia thing. The EU is definitely a titanic, but the US, probably not. It's going downhill, sure and won't stay a superpower forever, but just like Russia, due to its immense size, massive population and capability to own and operate a large military, its not going to become 'irrelevant' any time soon.
I don't see why some Serbs want to attach themselves to Russia at every opportunity they get. Russia is going nowhere, and is no longer the friendly 'Orthodox Slavic' brother it might have once been. It's just an ex-communist shell of a state run by a bunch of people who will do whatever is best for their own interest - not Serbia's.
The Russians don't actually 'care' for Serbia. Unless of coarse by 'caring' you mean increasing Russia's geo-political power. Reminds me of how the Americans 'care' for the Albanians.

I'm kind of tired of Serbia always being Russia's little b*tch. We should milk everyone for whatever we can get, and try be as self-determined as possible. Kind of like Israel.

Why don't we decide to take our own side, rather than the Russian side, or the American side, or whatever else other side there is. Russia should only be an ally in so far as it suits Serbia's interest, and not because of some romanticized 'Orthodox-Slavic' brotherhood - something they exploit very well. You guys do realize than Russia will dominate Serbia if something like a Slavic union were ever to come to fruition. The idea they will support us and give us power just because we're Serb is naive to the extreme.

Zman said...

Serbia is not Russia's little bitch, it's America's and Eu's little bitch.. show how clueless that post was.. ingorance all over the place..

Senad Alihromic said...

Zman, I admire your ability to read over my entire comment and not provide a single response. Just the usual one-liners that I can find littered all over Serb-media. At least Gray Falcon actually explores the issues, while you just repeat what you support like a parrot.

I'll ask again. WHY is Russia good for Serbia? Do you actually have an answer?

Also, whether Serbia is Russia's bitch or the US/EU's bitch is besides the point. Why do we need to be someone lapdog in the first place? Aren't we capable of running ourselves, or do we need some larger country to do it for us.
Judging by your comment, you're pissed off at the fact not that we are being used as a pawn in a geo-political chess game, but that we are being used by the wrong side.

Same sh*t, different smell.

Zman said...

well of course I'm pissed that we are a tool for someone's geopolitical game.. DUH..

"Why do we need to be someone lapdog in the first place?"

we don't "need" to be but we are occupied by foreign superpowers and therefore we have no chice.. It seems you are playing dumb or just don't understand that the current political class in Serbia is controlled by foreign interests.

it's possible to fight back against this. There needs to be a mass movement and mass movement must be lead by someone who is not intimidated by the powers that controll the goverment, the media, the companies, the banking system and everything in the country.

and as far as Russia is concerned I think that the relationship with Russia is positive.. WE shouldn't be their bitch but a trading economic partner and so on.. They are not the ones that bombed and they are not the ones imposing this corrupt goverment on Serbia.. It's not about Russia, it's about having good mutually benefecial relationship with any country that wants it..

panix Panixgr said...

you cry NWO muslim from light years away.

You do not have a problem with any unbelievable mullah from central africa (or somewhere nearby) interfering with ex-yu matters (Serbia/Bosnia) but you do have a problem with Serbs having relations with the most technically and culturally advanced nation outside NWO sphere.


I am Greek. Greece is almost (like Kosovo) a creation of the west. We belong to the west 100%. Body and soul.

I have also been to Bulgaria. Bulgaria is the russian equivalent. Everything there (especially circa 1880+) smells Russia. This country was largely created by Russia.

Well, the DIFFERENCE with which the Russians RESPECTED Bulgarians VS the apathy and cynicism Greece received from the west is just PHENOMENAL.

Russians regarded Bulgarians as humans. The west regards Greece as a bunch of donkeys who have some value as long as they dance up and down wearing ancient clothes and playing this pathetic theater.

Bulgaria while with Russia, in REALITY had a lot of connections to the outside world.

Greece (and in some extent ex-yugoslavia, also a fully western country) while with the west, we know only what FT or NY times want us to hear. NO THINKING OF OUR OWN. NO SPIRIT. NOTHING.

Is this NOTHING you are after mr Senad?

Senad Alihromic said...

Lol, for the 10th time, I am NOT a Muslim. I am an ATHEIST. I hate Islam as much as I hate Christianity. It's not that difficult to understand. To me, Islam and Christianity are two sides of the same Abrahamic coin.

My real name is not actually 'Senad'. My real name is a Russian name.

No idea what you are referring to by 'NWO'. Everyone uses that term to attack their enemies so its become meaningless.

As for African come on. No idea where you pulled that one from.

I don't know what you are trying to say about Bulgaria or what that has to do with Serbo-Russian relations.
I do know though, that Bulgarian and Serbian relations are anything but friendly. They've fought many wars in the past, and Bulgaria also recognized Kosovo. I don't see Bulgaria as an ally. No idea why you do.

Gray Falcon said...

I was traveling, so I haven't had a chance to post any responses here until now.

Given the failure of professional victims to impose their agenda (while still being given the opportunity to mock and insult via the Swedish exhibit), and the fact that the tone has begun to resemble a conversation of the deaf, I'll entertain no further comments on this thread.

Let me just address something that "Senad" wrote, though: "I am an ATHEIST. I hate Islam as much as I hate Christianity."

Hatred is what's the problem here. Not religion.

Senad Alihromic said...

Religion isn't the problem ey?

Serb's are Orthodox.
Croats are Catholic.
Bosniaks are Islamic.

Except for their religion (all 3 which originated in the middle eastern desert), those three groups of people are the same thing. They have the same culture, same history and speak the same language, and they used to share a single state. It is religion which turns these people against one another, even though we are literally brothers.

Is it any surprise that the Partisans in WWII were multi-ethnic AND atheist?

I would say not.

When you remove 'Orthodox', 'Catholic' or 'Mulim' from the identity, the three are pretty much inter-changeable. You actually become a Yugoslav.

Religion is what causes hatred, and there is nothing wrong with hating religion for that fact.

James said...

"I'll ask again. WHY is Russia good for Serbia? Do you actually have an answer?"

I'll answer you with a few reasons. For one, Russia isn't working against Serbia as are key EU/western countries who have and are working against Serbs - promoting lies, demonization, setting up the wars, arming enemies, training them to ethnically cleanse Serbs (MPRI in Croatia, bombing and terrorizing Serbs - deliberately attacking the civilian infrastructure, etc.
So, in that respect Russia is an alternative to those dangerous and abusive towards Serbia and Serbs.

Next is that Russia today is NOT the Soviet Union, which, by the way, was mostly headed by non-ethnic Russians or atheists who were anti-Russian and anti-Orthodox. The Bolsheviks - none of them - were Orthodox.
Russia has sent significant aid to Serbs (especially after the March 2004 riots) and had camps for Serb refugees from Kosovo.

Third, Russia has for a few years in a row, send water bomber planes to put out fires over Serbia at no expense to Serbia whatsoever. I think Russia even went to Bosnia to help them because they requested it. (I do not know if it was the RS part/Muslim-Croat Federation part or both.)

Fourth, Russia has a free trade agreement with Serbia which can really work to Serbia's advantage. Unfortunately, the DOS came to power soon after and oversaw some bad/criminal privatization which shut down even some productive/successful companies which otherwise could have really boosted trade.
It's this free trade agreement why Italy and some other countries are now wanting to invest in Serbia.

Also, trade with Russia has been really increasing, the latest is that Serbia's agriculture exports to Russia are up 50% and of that fruit exports are up 100%.
"the export of agricultural products from Serbia to Russia is increasing by 50 percent every year, while the export of fruit is up by as much as 100 percent"
Furniture exports to Russia went up in 2011: "last year the exports of furniture to Russia increased by 50%, which is largely the result of the Free Trade Agreement, adding that Russia is the third biggest importer of the furniture made in Serbia."

Russia is also the supplier of natural gas to Serbia, and Serbia is quite dependent on this. So it does need Russia.

Remember that during Austria's imposed "Pig War" on Serbia whereby it tried to break Serbia's economy by boycotting its largest export of the time, that Serbia turned to Russia and was saved.
Of course that was before the WWI, in which Germany really did want to cut down a rising Russia before it got too strong - that was really one of the top reasons for setting up the war.

Also, I think if Russia were stronger and more active/pro-active it would give more pause to the U.S. and other countries bombing and invading country after country. Look what they did to poor Libya which was actually doing the best in Africa before the "pro-democracy" rioters/rebels/soldiers and western bombing. And now Syria has many non-Syrian mercenaries destroying its cities and heritage and killing and maiming the civilians, for which the lying mainstream press falsely accuses the regime.

Gray Falcon said...

Senad, you're making my point - though I imagine not in the way you intended.

I absolutely agree that the three groups define themselves by their religion. But the latter two accepted their religions in order to transition from oppressed to oppressors. Without that distinction, their entire identity implodes. So they don't want to give it up. The Serbs have certainly never asked them to - even after two million dead at "brotherly" hands in the course of the 20th century.

I am certainly not asking them to. Yeah, they hate me because of their religion - but guess what? I don't care.

I don't hate them, or their religions. What they do with themselves is their own matter entirely. But I am certainly not going to give up my identity to accommodate them, or anyone else. There's been more than enough of that. No more.

panix Panixgr said...

Our muslim Senad is not only an anti-religion (anti orthodox) man, but also although he never admits so, he is hugely anti-slavic. The fact that he chooses to comment only on the problems/differences between muslims/croats/serbs and bulgarians is more than enough of an evidence.

Fact is that ex-yugoslavs + bulgarians are highly compatible nations and the fact that they do civil inner-slavic wars serves only one purpose : the extinction of the slavs (and that includes all of them : serbs/croats/bosniaks/poles/russians/etc...)

I am disgusted googling for ukraine and the first result to be about an imaginary soviet-russian crime or something anti-slavic related.

Also @GRay falcon :

of course the ex-communist regimes were anti-orthodox and anti-serb/anti-russian BUT LET US notice that today their western demonization serves as a platform for more demonization against the orthodox people....

We gotta be careful with their tricks.

Asteri said...

I would say that Russia obviously places its own interests way above that of Serbia’s, the difference is as James said, its that its not doing anything to harm Serbia and Serbia benefits from Russian influence while its being harmed by western influence both culturally and politically. The whole Jovanovic-Biserko-NED-RFE-HW rabble does a lot of squawking about how Serbia will become a “colony” of Russia, but this just because it will become the colony of the wrong country; they’re very enthusiastic champions of Serbia being a satellite of the right empire. This explains the hysterical love affair the Empire and its lovers have with “Kosova,” the desperation to find anyone in the world who actually likes them was always going to provoke extreme reactions; the image of people waving US, EU and NATO flags is just a wet dream come true. In contrast insubordination and ‘anti-westernism’ is just the most unforgivable heresy – it’s an abomination. That’s why they hate Serbia, Greece and Russia so much; because of all the narcissistic, self-aggrandising propaganda about how wonderful the west is they just can’t deal with manifestations of opposition other than to treat them as acts of outright Satanism.
It’s is in fact, a totally Stalinoid mind-set, the Hungarian uprising against Soviet domination can’t have been an uprising against Soviet domination because why would anyone be anti-Soviet other than being Fascist? It must have been the whole of Hungarian society that was wrong – not the Soviets. It’s the same thing now, why would any Serb object to US-EU policy’s other than being nationalist extremists? The west thinks it can purify the Serbs and make them into good little ‘normal’ western Europeans by eradicating un-western ideas and punishing ‘extremists’ in the same way the Soviets thought Hungary could be reformed into a model socialist society by eradicating anti-Soviet elements. The ideology has changed the mind-set hasn't.

Zman said...

there is no problem with religous freedom in serbia.. Muslims and there are many fled from Alija Izetbegovic's death squads still to this live in Serbia with all the rights they want. AFter serbs were getting slaughtered in Kosovo and Bosnia it would have been easy for Serbs to retaliate and started murdering all the muslims Sandjak and throughout Serbia but IT NEVER HAPPENED... and yet all the media is saying quite the opposite.. meanwhile serbs have NO RIGHTS in croatia and none in Kosovo and they have been kicked out of Sarajevo and pretty much everywhere where serbs are not a majority.

jack said...

In regards to Serbia and Russia there is not much that Russia can do to support the Serbs given its geographic location either by sea or air in a region where the neighbouring countries are not to favourable towards Serbia.

Off topic against but an interesting video report from ABC news regarding an Eastern European Muslim smuggling network into the US operating out of the Balkans.

Meezer said...


You forget thousands of muslims fought alongside the VRS against the fascist regime in Sarajevo. Does the name Fiktet Abdic ring a bell???