Sunday, March 09, 2014

Logic and the West

As actual aggressors and actual perpetrators of Munich continue to accuse Putin of being Hitler, perhaps Philosoraptor could explain the problem with their "reasoning":

(via Facebook)
Translation: If Putin is Hitler, shouldn't the Banderovites be taking orders from him?

Instead, they are taking orders from Washington.



Meezer said...

That's something that Hillary Clinton needs to answer :)

bearspaw said...

Hillary's answer is easy. "With all due respect, what difference at this point does it make?" After all, it worked once, so chances are it will again.

Alex Kavoski said...

Can I ask a question. What is your position on Crimea's secession, and how is Crimea different than Kosovo?

Crimea is predominantly populated by Russians, and Kosovo is predominantly populated by Albanians. The Russians in Crimea want to secede Crimea from Ukraine and annex it onto Russia. The Albanians in Kosovo want to secede Kosovo from Serbia and annex it to Albania. I think you would agree that "independent Kosovo" is just an intermediate step on the way to the ultimate goal of Greater Albania.

I agree that it's hypocritical for the West to support Kosovo's secession from Serbia, and to oppose Crimea's secession from Ukraine. If Albanians have the right to break-away from Serbia, then Russians obviously have the right to break-away from Ukraine.

However, isn't it also hypocritical for one to support Crimea's secession from Ukraine, while opposing Kosovo's secession from Serbia? It's not like Serbia has been immune from political upheaval because of Western interference in its internal affairs. There was a coup in 2000 against Slobodan Milosevic, and there was another heavy handed crackdown on political opposition in the wake of Zoran Djindjic's assassination. Does the fact that Serbia's Western-backed government behaved in a less than democratic fashion negate Serbia's claim to Kosovo and its right to it's territorial integrity?

Why should Ukraine lose it's right to territorial integrity just because its government was destabilized by the West? Wasn't the same thing done to Serbia? Is it right to sacrifice Ukraine's territorial integrity on the altar of Western hypocrisy? Why should the Ukranians suffer for the sins of NATO? Ukraine didn't bomb Serbia, and it hasn't recognized Kosovo.

CubuCoko said...

Crimea and Kosovo are in no way the same. Putin invoked the Kosovo case not to justify Crimea, but to make a point the West has no moral ground to stand on.

What I see happening in Ukraine is a militant, bigoted minority assuming power and seeking to dominate the rest of the country. So the proper parallel is Bosnia, or Croatia/Krajina, not Kosovo.

Russia can either stand back and watch a neo-Nazi regime in Kiev tyrannize all of Ukraine (not going to happen); seek "regime change" and impose a government amenable to half the country, but hated by the Banderites in the West (also unlikely), or let the Banderites claim the parts that favor them, and rescue the rest from their boot - which I think is what's happening.

For a more detailed explanation, I recommend this essay.

Alex Kavoski said...

IMHO, the parallel isn't exactly Bosnia or Krajina. The Serbs weren't the ones doing the seceding in Bosnia or Croatia, they were resisting the violent and unlawful secession of Croatia and Bosnia from Yugoslavia. In spite of the propaganda about "Greater Serbia," nobody ever tried to secede Republika Srpska away from Bosnia and annex it to Serbia. The Serbs' only demand was their autonomy in exchange for accepting Bosnian independence, but the Russians in Crimea aren't asking for autonomy, they want outright secession from Ukraine like the Albanians in Kosovo demanding outright secession from Serbia.

While I sympathize with the Russians, and while I would love nothing better than to rub NATO's face in its own mess. It's not right to dismember Ukraine just to spite NATO and the West. Ukraine isn't responsible for the sins of Washington and Brussels. Ukraine hasn't recognized Kosovo. Ukraine didn't bomb Serbia. The West hijacked Ukraine's government. The people of Ukraine didn't vote this group of fascists and thugs into power, they took power by force by killing police and destroying government buildings with the support of the West. As a Serb you must be able to sympathize, Western-backed stooges have ruled the roost in Belgrade since they seized power there on the 5th of October.

I would support the Russians forcibly asserting their autonomy within Ukraine, and refusing to recognize Ukraine's unelected government, but I can't support outright secession and forcibly redrawing the borders of Ukraine without the whole of Ukraine agreeing to the change. Listen to your arguments, didn't the Muslims and Croats justify illegal secession from Yugoslavia by alleging that the Serbs were a bigoted minority that was intent on dominating the rest of Yugoslavia and turning it into "Serboslavia"? That was the propaganda.

panix Panixgr said...

exactly what CubuCoko wrote, I could take even further and claim the following parallelisms are true :

USSR <-> Yugoslavia
Russia <-> Serbia
Ukraine <-> Bosnia (and also Kosovo i'll explain below)
Poland/Baltics <-> Croatia

Why i say that Ukraine (and not Crimea) besides Bosnia ressembles Kosovo a lot :

Kievan Russ <-> Imperial Serbia with its Patriarchate based in Kosovo.

Kiev as the oldest cradle of Russian civilization, equally with Kosovo being the oldest cradle of imperial Serbian civilization.

Serbs based on what is today Kosovo, Makedonia and southern Serbia built the most important balkan empire (after the Bulgarian empires) and left their ORTHODOX marks in what is today Makedonia and Greece.

Now, where does Crimea fit in the picture ? I'll explain :

Crimea/eastern Ukraine <-> Northern Kosovo
Russian speaking populations in fascist occupied Ukraine <-> Serbian enclaves in albanian-fascist occupied Kosovo.

I hope that set it straight Alex...

And don't get fooled, not only the west does not bear any sentiment of love towards the Ukrainians, on the contrary they hate pathologically anything Slavic, and in the end you will see that they will respect those Slavs that showed some form of resistence rather than those who submitted at the first shot.

You will see.

CubuCoko said...

Alex, the Serbs initially opposed the illegal secession - until the West declared it legal (Badinter Commission, January 1992). At which point the Serbs themselves seceded and established the RSK and the RS. You are right that there was no attempt to unite them with Serbia (or FRY, as it was at the time).

I've actually watched Ukraine, on and off, for almost two decades as well. The Ukrainian national identity - as construed by Banderovtsi and other svidomites - reminds me uncomfortably of Croatian, or modern-day "Montenegrin", in that it is artificial, anti-Russian and ultimately Uniate. Back in 1998, I listened to a proto-Banderist government official talk about the plan to eliminate Russian language in Ukraine within a generation, while giving absolute lip service to it and other "human rights" in written legislation.

So what is to be done? Should the Banderovtsi just be allowed free reign in the territory they claim? Should there be an intervention to oust them altogether, and free Ukraine from their terror? I would prefer that option myself, but it looks like Putin is being very conservative and looking out for Crimea first (inhabited by ethnic Russians, fleet base), then the southeast - Kharkov, Donbas, Odessa - if the population there rejects the Banderovtsi, leaving them to rule a "rump Ukraine" in the West. Again, I don't know if this is the best approach, as the Banderovtsi will not take this as a gift (which it is) but complain to high heaven about being victims of "aggression and occupation".

I just found out today that one of my college buddies is now a "member of the Rada from UDAR" (I thought they had no seats in the legislature, so what happened, he switch allegiances?). I remember him when he was Pavel. Now he goes by "Pavlo" and is bemoaning Ukraine's lack of nuclear weapons. No doubt, someone will soon try and blame "Russian aggression" for svidomite madness - but those of us that remember for longer than 15 minutes know this is nonsense. The madness has been there for a long time.